Should your brand film be on Netflix? Maybe. But maybe not.
This is one of the top requests that clients ask of Marcus Peterzell, CEO of Passion Point Collective, and Brian Newman, founder of Sub-Genre. These two are some of the branded documentary space’s foremost experts on distribution and funding. And while many clients come to them with the dream of getting their brand film on one of the large streaming networks, Marcus & Brian break down why that dream may not be right for everyone. They detail how to leverage other opportunities that exist in the marketplace for distribution based on the delicate balance of goals and budget.
TRANSCRIPT
Brian Newman: Some of the streamers that were harder to get onto with brand funded stuff before are more open to those conversations now. But again it starts with great storytelling. You’ve got to have that or you’re probably going to have a hard time getting an audience no matter where you go because audiences whether they’re on your YouTube channel or somewhere else want something that’s authentic and good.
Marcus Peterzell: Great content is always going to win. End of subject.
Jesse Roesler: Greetings and welcome to Content That Moves, the podcast from Credo Nonfiction and BrandStorytelling that pulls back the curtain to reveal how the best in brand films and episodic content is being funded, created, distributed, and measured.
I'm your host, Jesse Roesler, the founder of Credo Nonfiction, where we partner with brands to find and tell stories that reveal brand purpose and deepen brand meaning through short and feature-length documentaries or episodic series. Visit CredoNonFiction.com to learn how we can help you create real, moving stories for your brand.
This podcast is co-produced by BrandStorytelling, bringing you the latest news, trends, and insights in branded content with top-of-industry events and in-depth industry coverage online. BrandStorytelling encourages a higher level of collaboration among advertisers, agencies, media partners, and creators in pursuit of a richer media environment. For more of the latest in the world of branded content or to explore event offerings, visit BrandStorytelling.tv today.
Today we have a very special episode, and I have the honor of being joined by two pioneers in the field, Marcus Peterzell, CEO of Passion Point Collective, and Brian Newman, founder of Sub-Genre. These are two of the best experts around who connect brands with filmmakers, funding, and distribution which seems to be the hot topic on everyone’s lips right now. We’ll explore the nuanced strategies behind distribution and promotion and dive into how Marcus and Brian help brands activate their content across multiple platforms, all the way from niche publishers to global streamers. We’ll also unpack how to find the right fit for brand-funded films and the critical role storytelling plays in breaking through the noise.
Jesse Roesler: Gentlemen, welcome back to both of you. You've both been here before on Content That Moves. For myself, whenever I have a client that comes to me and is investing in some prestige content but maybe hasn't thought through the distribution component, there are two names I refer them to, and they're both right here with us. So, it’s awesome to have you both together, the brain trust.
To get right into it, I want to talk about different aspects of distribution, activation, and promotion of brand-funded films, and how we go about finding the right fit between content and the right distributor. How do people budget accordingly? Maybe you could both give me a lay of the current landscape in terms of outlets you consider, such as festivals, streamers, broadcasters, niche publishers, and bigger entities just getting into brand-funded films. I’m curious about what that landscape looks like for you right now and how you determine which avenue to pursue.
Marcus Peterzell: We very simply tell our brands—and Brian will concur with this—that if we've had 30 clients, none have had the exact same objective. Every client is a little different. Before we say anything about distribution, we ask, "What are your eventual goals? Show us your KPIs at the end. What's a win for your CEO? What's a win for you?" Be really crystal clear on that. Then we’ll reverse engineer, go back to the content, and get you there. But if we don’t know the end game, I can’t give you a distribution strategy.
Brian Newman: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. That’s what it starts with. We really want to find out their goals, their KPIs. I guess what I'd add is who they think their audience is and what they want them to do afterward. If there is a call to action, that can influence what you want to do with it as well. The plan gets built around all that. If you don’t have that in place, there’s no way we can say, "Make this kind of thing, and it’s going to end up here," because it’s all based on those goals, and they are different for every company.
Marcus Peterzell: We just were literally talking to a client today about their new film, an environmental series, and we said, "Listen, we’ve done transactional TVOD with you before, but you sell three rentals, so it doesn’t even pay for lunch. We’re going to recommend we don’t do that this time. Let’s go to an outlet like WaterBear that does environmental content. At least it’s streaming, it’s free." And they said, "But we just like to say in the press release that it’s on iTunes."
Brian Newman: And you get that kind of approach in general where people come to us and say, "How do we get on Netflix?" That’s their number one goal. You might say, "Well, that might not be the best goal, and it’s really hard to do. Even if you get there, which can be a win, sometimes you can get lost in that algorithm." If right now you were to tell me that you’re trying to hit a younger, diverse audience, I would say you might be better on Tubi because that’s what’s jamming in that arena. They are doing really well with younger, diverse audiences. So, it depends on what you’re trying to do sometimes. And sometimes it is your owned and operated channels, like your YouTube, that might be the best way to go.
I guess what we didn’t answer from your question though, is that it’s now a multi-platform world, and it’s changing every day. You’ve got your major streamers, but then you also have smaller outlets like WaterBear, Documentary+. There’s big things like Tubi, and Pluto, and Roku, and all those. And within each of those now, they’re adding advertising options, so they’re more open to working with brands. But that also means, you’ve got both kind approaching them as what they call an original, where you’re more like getting licensed by the streamer to take up an audience. But they’ve also got a paid division, where you’re paying for that distribution. That doesn’t necessarily mean its a bad thing, but you’ve got to know if you have the budget to do that if you’re going to go down that route. Whoever the decision-maker is, it’s what’s going to make them happy, and that helps us figure it out too.
Jesse Roesler: And I think it’s not just about the budget but also how lightly or heavily branded something is determines if you can get a license fee and be considered an original. Can you talk about what you've seen there in terms of what type of content could go on as original and get a license fee versus something you would pay?
Brian Newman: The short answer is that it needs to be really good. It’s got to be a true movie or series that someone’s going to tell someone else “you should see this” and it’s not thought of as advertising and it’s not too heavily branded. The more branded it is, the harder it is to make that deal. There are some exceptions every now and then. In a way like the Northwell Health example, it's taking place at their hospitals. So the brand's in there and that’s ok. But if you’re constantly showing your product in a non-authentic way, we’re not going to be able to make that deal. We might be able to do a paid media deal for it, but it still has to be good. I think at this conference people are waking up to that, but there’s still a lot of brands getting pressure from their CFO probably or someone like that, where it’s like, "Why are we spending money if it’s not pressing our brand?" So, we have to win that argument.
Marcus Peterzell: It’s really how it’s branded. You could have very light branding, and you could just have the brand subtly there. But if the brand has nothing to do with the content, and people are scratching their heads. Or you could be heavily branded but you so organically fit into the story.
I always use the feature film “The Italian Job” and Mini Cooper. No one in the theater was going "product placement, product placement." Why? Because it worked. Brands are funding more and more content, so consumers are not that surprised any more. And someone’s got to fund content.
Jesse Roesler: Especially now with streamers not doing as well as they were, they need development funding.
Brian Newman: So they’re more open to a lot more now than they were before. Some of the streamers that were harder to get on to for brand-funded stuff are more open to those conversations now. But again, it starts with great storytelling. You’ve got to have that or you’re not only not going to get on that kind of distribution, and but you’ll probably have a hard time getting an audience no matter where you go because audiences, whether they’re on your YouTube channel or somewhere else, want something authentic and good.
Marcus Peterzell: Great content is always going to win. End of subject. Great content will always break through. Brian has done a great job, and he’s got some clients that produce great content that they want. For example, when they showed “Dads” to Apple TV, they said we want it. Because it’s Bryce Howard and she’s getting her dad Ron into to. And they heard Unilever was behind it and they go, “we will never do that. No problem. Then you won't get the film. And Amazon agreed.
So good content. And when we did this little cute little film for HP that was very inexpensive and we said, we're gonna shoot for the Today Show, and they go, it's impossible. HP's a media buy. So the revenue guy comes running out of his office to grab the checkbook. But it was that good that they were willing to tell the revenue guy to go back in his office. Great content, if they want it badly enough, they're gonna do it.
Brian Newman: Really quick we should also say that the distribution game is not just the streamers. So both of us, we’re also helping people get their films into festivals, conferences, in front of policymakers, working with nonprofit groups to do impact screenings. Because hopefully your goal is not to just to get on Netflix, or somewhere whatever that stand-in name is. It’s to have an impact even if it’s not a social issue film. You want it to be seen and you want people talking about it. It’s a noisy environment, so you’ve got to do a lot of other things around it than just think about streaming. And so both of us, we try to help you think through all those different things that you can do, and all the ways you can fire on all cylinders, as I like to say, as a brand with your owned and operated channels to also promote it as well.
Jesse Roesler: Speaking of “Good Morning America,” I love what you said today about film festivals. Don’t just think about the people in the room at festivals. Think about the press that’s present and how it’s an earned media opportunity and all of a sudden your $40 entry fee gets you in front of all the press. And there’s other extensions of that. Do you want to talk a little about that as well?
Marcus Peterzell: Absolutely. People like this because first of all they like the laurels. Laurels always look good on a keynote.
Jesse Roesler: It’s instant credibility.
Marcus Peterzell: It’s instant. We could really just put laurels and say, the Marcus and Brian Film Festival and they wouldn’t notice. No one ever looks. They’ve just see them, unless you’ve won a big laurel which is rare. So, you know, they love that. And it's just a great vehicle because you've got so many ways. Where's your headquarters? We're in San Jose, great, we're gonna go to the Mill Valley Film Festival. It's right there. And then your employees can all come or walk the red carpet. So, then there are so many festivals celebrating women. Great, there was a woman director, female director, let's celebrate their work. So it really is a great way to do it. And just people don't know that. They think they can go to Film Freeway, they can submit the films. The challenge is that there are 12,000 films on that platform and they have to pick 30 or 40. And our job is, we tell you which 30 or 40 really matter. And then we lobby. We have our relationships with the program directors. So it's a great little vehicle that most, if you don't have people with expertise in it, you're gonna look at Film Freeway and your head's gonna spin. Or just, okay, I'm gonna go to Tribeca, and Sundance, and Toronto because those are the ones I heard of, when there's zero chance they're getting in. So it's a science. It sounds like it's an easy process. It's not.
Jesse Roesler: That's where I've had success too. Having films pre-brand funding that have done certain festivals like Banff. And I did a follow up for a non-profit and we were able to explore the same pathway that we did with that film. So I think knowing the niches, right, like if you've got an outdoor film, you wanna be at Banff. If you've got a woman director, there's festivals that you want to go at. So it's a huge landscape and I think making a custom plan is incredibly important.
Brian Newman: And sometimes it’s not a film festival. That might be one piece of it, but we’ve done some B2B-type films where premiering at a conference that is for that industry is just as important. Or, with John Deere’s volunteer firefighter film, we did some film festivals, but we also played at the gigantic conference for volunteer firefighters that they go to. That’s when they tell everyone else, "I saw this film at the conference; you’ve got to see it." That was better for us than the festivals that we played.
Jesse Roesler: : That’s one of the case studies I was hoping to dig into. You found significant distribution there. How much can you say about that?
Marcus Peterzell: A lot, actually. That was an interesting project where John Deere didn’t originate the project. They came on board because they support volunteer firefighters—John Deere himself was a volunteer firefighter. The filmmakers had the idea first and they went to the National Volunteer Firefighter Council, which is a nonprofit that represents them got involved, and then they got Deere involved. And Deere underwrote all the distribution activities. But it’s a crucial point that they didn’t have anything to do with the creative because we now were able to get that film onto PBS. Normally, PBS won’t work with brand-funded films. The whole point of being public broadcasting is to be non-corporate. But we were able to prove editorially that it was started independently and they were only involved in the rollout of the film.
So we played only a few film festivals. Actually, it wasn't a festival favorite really. But I like to say it was festival proof and distributor proof because we knew it had an audience. Because it's got a core audience of firefighters and people whose lives have been affected. And our most important thing we did with Deere's help was we went to 350 fire departments across the country and gave them the film to show. And they would pull out the fire trucks and Deere dealerships would show up and provide beer for the adults and ice cream for the kids and barbecue. And they used it to recruit. And 56% of those stations got volunteers who joined up as a result of showing the film. A larger percentage, I don't remember the exact amount, 60, 70% got donations in addition.
We also did a theatrical release for the film in about 10 cities. And then we got the PBS deal. And what's interesting there is we had kind of finished a lot of this distribution. It's available for rent on iTunes and we even made DVDs for this one because a lot of people in rural communities and stuff, but there's still a DVD audience, believe it or not. And the idea is now it becomes kind of evergreen content and PBS stations will want to play it for fire safety month every year hopefully. And so it'll have a longer life.
So we're going to reactivate Deere's publicity machine, our marketing machine, and all the groups that we showed the film with before, we'll ask them to repromote it when it comes out. And it had a huge impact without going straight to Netflix. You know, PBS was a goal there. If we hadn't done that, we would've done something that was probably like a Discovery or something that was reaching a broad middle-America home, as well as the coasts.
Marcus Peterzell: And we're stealing a page from Hollywood. The Blindside, they went to churches before the film was commercially released. But it's a really smart vehicle. When I did Farmland, now 10 years ago, we went to Farm Bureaus. And they held screenings. You need organizations that can do it. Because we can't manage every little city and town. You know, we're gonna send them a kit and they've got to do it. So there's so many other vehicles. Look, we're not exactly bullish on broadcast TV these days because of where we are, but we had a film for Mount Sinai and this is now seven, eight years ago and all they cared about was the New York metro area. That's where the hospital is. And any other exposure in the Midwest, that did them no good. I said, well there's something called, you know, TV where people will actually watch it because it's on as opposed to VOD where they have to make a choice. And so we went to CBS and they said, how about after the Army Navy game? Thanksgiving, everyone's home for Thanksgiving with their families, we're watching the Army Navy game, and boom, we'll show this great documentary you did right after as a time buy. If anyone found out it was, I'd be shocked. Because no one knew. And I think it was $75,000 and we got a huge rating and they're like: “Oh. TV. Go figure.”
Jesse Roesler: I love that for a lot of reasons. I mean, especially when you tap into passionate communities that are maybe niche like volunteer firefighters. I live in one of those communities. People that serve are incredibly proud of it. So when a brand maybe partners with a nonprofit, or cause that they're passionate about, that opens up some opportunities too. So I'd love to maybe zoom in on that a little bit. And I think where you found that is a really interesting niche publication that maybe people wouldn't think of.
Marcus Peterzell: Well, there's a lot of organizations that you can go out to for these. They could be trade groups, nonprofit groups. We went out to the digital entertainment group, which is the trade group. We have 13,000 executives who work in digital – Sony, Panasonic – and we want to show it to them. Girls That Code, we want to show it to our constituency. So there's so many organizations that are nonprofits that are out there that are hungry for content and are happy either through their website, or their newsletter, or any events they're having. So really this is so back to distribution. It's not a simple answer. There's no simple answer anymore. Because we would recommend that strategy and these regional screenings and NGO screenings, depending on what their objectives were. And we did a film with Neutrogena. We did “In the Sun” with Kerry Washington. And they were just like, we want the most views, quantifiable, for the lowest cost. I'm like, YouTube. Let's go to YouTube with a media buy and blow it out. It did 11.8 million views with a 75% completion rate.
Brian Newman: That's a big completion rate. Wow.
Marcus Peterzell: That's a big number. But we don't recommend that for everyone. So it has to be custom. Brian and I are never gonna have a one-size-fits-all. Not going to work.
Brian Newman: And we've had clients where they don't have any presence on YouTube. They don't have a good marketing machine to get people there. So that's not the answer for them. They need to have a distribution partner that's gonna bring the audience to them. So again, it's gotta be bespoke for, for every instance.
Marcus Peterzell: And they think: Netflix, home run, let's throw a party. Really? Do you know how many views you got on Netflix? So it's, it's not always.
Jesse Roesler: You never know. Right. There's no transparency there.
Brian Newman: There’s no transparency. And we've had films that we've sold to Netflix, not media buys, they were picked up like real movies, and they were real movies. And we've been told by Netflix that one of the films we had on there was the number four film on Netflix for two weeks straight. But when I go to events and conferences, I ask everyone in the room if they've heard of it, no one's heard of it. So I have no way to prove that that was a success because Netflix doesn't give me those actual numbers. They just give me a kind of broad scope range.
So we've also had projects where they said, look, our CEO wants to know the numbers. We've gotta go somewhere where we've got the data. And so we said, okay, well if we go to this place, they'll give us more data. It's a paid media deal, but you're gonna get a lot more data because you're paying for it. And they agreed that was better for them than even trying to sell it to Netflix where they're not gonna get the data.
Marcus Peterzell: Roku will provide data.
Brian Newman: Right. And that's where we went.
Marcus Peterzell: Are they sexy like Netflix? No, but they will provide the data.
Brian Newman: And when you turn it on, they'll promote it on the home screen.
Marcus Peterzell: They'll promote on the home screen and they have a pay-for-play model. But we, for one of our brand films last year, we just said, do you happen to spend money on Netflix? And it's amazing. Often the people that we deal with are not… the media people are down the hall. So they go down the hall. And I'm like, you're first thinking about this? And, and they were like, yeah, we did a big buy with them this year, but it's spent. So we can't repurpose any of that buy to put the film on and we have no more money yet for next year. I go, just go to them and say, did you enjoy the $3 million ad buy this year? Great. Would you like a 3 million buy for next year? Sure you would. This is a great film it belongs on Roku.
And they did it.
Value add.
Brian Newman: Another thing is Roku also has an originals division. And you can get picked up even as a brand film for the originals division, but then it can still be good to do a paid media spend with them because you're gonna make sure that it's showing up on the homepage, it's getting promoted in the queue and you're sending traffic to it because otherwise you can get lost. So we've, we've had that situation where it was kind of like a hybrid where they wanted it, as an original, they promoted it as like a Roku original. We didn't spend as much as we would have just going to paid media direct, but we did spend some money just because you could guarantee you're gonna get eyeballs onto it, which is, it's really tough today. You're competing for everyone's attention spans.
Marcus Peterzell: The other one where you can get that we're bullish on is media partnerships creating a hybrid. And the hybrid is where we go around the revenue team and we go directly to the editorial team. And we did it with Seventeen magazine for our HP film Generation Impact. And we said, you've got a series just like this with photos and copy. We've got films that you can't afford to make. You can have them. Go brand them. I don't care what you want. Take them. And I got it. We gotta give you some spots and dots to promote it. But it's gonna be very minimal because we're coming out of comms and PR and not for media buying. And they were able to shut down their ad people and say, go back to your office. We're gonna do this because we want the content. Which is no different than Netflix saying we want the content. And so again, content's gotta be great, it goes back to the same.
Brian Newman: We've done that a lot with smaller niche publications. Like we've done that many times with surf publications or films that are surf related because they want the content. So we've done deals where we say, you can have this as a 48-hour exclusive or a one-week exclusive, just for your subscribers. And we didn't do a paid media deal. They help promote it and then it goes on to the brand's channels, but they've already engaged that core audience and then they're promoting it out to, to their friends as well. So there's a lot of ways you can, you know, not just go straight to the media agency buying. And we've also had situations where our clients are like, our media agency is spending X amount of dollars to do this. And I'm like, I could have gotten you that for free. If you would just let me talk to the editorial team sooner. So it's about thinking about it early so you can plan it out.
Jesse Roesler: A lot of the traditional print publications are starving for video digitally. And I did the same thing you did with Conde Nast Traveler where we got our adventure film place with Emily Ford, who's an adventurer. She was raising awareness about mining in the Boundary Waters and they had a ‘Women Who Travel’ series, but it was words and pictures. How about a film to go in that series? And so, same thing. Yeah. If you know the editorial staff versus the ad buy.
Marcus Peterzell: Well often what will happen is they say: well, here's our guy that handles HP. He's going to call the HP media team. I go, go ahead. Bottom line is this is not easy.
Brian Newman: What you guys both just hinted that, is you did the research to know that they have that editorial, thing going on with photos and that you could offer them video. And so you need someone on your team, whether it's us or someone else, but you need to have someone who's willing to do that work to figure that out and, and not just think like, we're gonna throw money at this to get it out there. You might end up doing that too, but you'll probably do better with that spend if you've been strategic in that partnership.
Jesse Roesler: That's awesome. Any final thoughts and things that you've seen? The whole industry has been evolving so quickly, especially in this regard. Is there anything in the last little bit that you're like, oh, this is interesting. I'm gonna keep my eye on that. Or any other parting advice for people who maybe have a project in early stages?
Brian Newman: I think there's been a lot of changes. So like we're working on an animated short right now that has Oscar potential behind it. It's qualified for the Academy Awards, so it won at a film festival already. And we were about to pitch it to the head of animation at Netflix and her and her entire team were fired three days after they did their animation Upfronts, where they presented their entire slate. And we were about to pitch them this great new short that might win an Academy Award. And now we have to wait to see who they put in their place.That's happening at every place. They're all doing cuts. They're firing people, laying people off. So it's changing a lot. But at the same time they're all hurting in different ways for different types of films and shows. They're moving into advertising support in the last, what, two months? Like there's been news announcements of new hires at Apple and Amazon and Netflix that’s specifically devoted to brands and film. So it's definitely an area that's still up and coming. And while there's a lot of changes, there's a lot more opportunity than there was in some ways.
Marcus Peterzell: The problem is, these outlets, they're all looking at this on a revenue basis. Here's a new source of revenue. As soon as we mention HP, as soon as we mention REI, as soon as we mention whatever it is, the antenna goes up…money. So circumventing that, and being a little scrappy and working with these FAST channels and these smaller streamers. If you have a smaller streamer and they're gonna promote it and get behind it. I mean, you know, it's just people, they like to hear Cannes Lions. They like to hear Tribeca. And that's a conundrum. They've heard what they've heard. So it takes education on our part every time we get a client. For the most part, unless they've got a sophisticated studio, we've gotta really educate. We have a client who really wants to get into the Cannes Lions and we know they can't and we just have to really ex… We think it's so obvious. We have to explain why, take them through it and go. But maybe the Effies and maybe the Muse Awards
Jesse Roesler: And why that might be better ultimately in the long run, right?
Marcus Peterzell: Correct. A hundred percent.
Jesse Roesler: So these are all bespoke pathways that you put together based on what the project is and where, you know, that audience will be.
Marcus Peterzell: The bad news, it's a complicated spider web. The good news, it's why Brian and I have jobs. If they could just easily just call someone. You know, in the old days that's what they would do. And we wouldn't have a role in the process.
Jesse Roesler: Well and with how quickly this keeps moving, I mean we could do this again in six months and we'd probably have a lot of new insights. Well Maybe we should do that in January.
To see more case studies from Brian, visit sub-genre.com, and to see more from Marcus, visit passionpointcollective.com. As always, I hope you’ve been enjoying the podcast, and I’d love to hear from you. If you have ideas for guests or topics for future episodes, drop me a note at jesse@credononfiction.com.
I hope you've been enjoying the podcast, and I'd love to hear from you. If you have ideas for guests or topics for future episodes, drop me a note at jesse@credononfiction.com.
